Curse

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

And that was my point - you have no clue what you're talking about.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, bro. The implication that "skills" > player skill always brings out a heated response from the PvP crowd. I said it before, I'll say it again - if skill was more important as "skills" equipped, then a superior player would be able to overcome a deficient build. My case in point - mending whammo versus Magni. There are two necessary conditions, of which you need one, to beat Magni - either blind or cripple&kite. The mending whammo has neither, but if you add the blind skill then *poof* - victory. Whatever you may say about the depth of the learning curve, I can say how shallow it is.

The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle.

@Omniclasm, just because you're right here but you represent a bunch of unhelpful people - Look at the post by Avarre - it is helpful, concise, and nonjudgemental. Yours, however, is not. Hmmmmmmm.

And, lastly, QFT!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

I suppose this is where i went wrong i used this sytem:
Enter->Suceed inefficiently/fail->Refine bars->Progress
whilst now it seems to be:
Research->Load Optimum templates or fail-> Suceed.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

My case in point - mending whammo versus Magni. There are two necessary conditions, of which you need one, to beat Magni - either blind or cripple&kite. The mending whammo has neither, but if you add the blind skill then *poof* - victory. Whatever you may say about the depth of the learning curve, I can say how shallow it is.

My Sin didn't need either though.
Critical Agility, Critical Defenses, Way of Perfection... Moebius + Death Blossom spam = Dead Magni.
75% block suffices when 90% miss isn't an option.

I'm sure a Riposting Wammo could manage just fine.

Omniclasm · Sep 19, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

@Omniclasm, just because you're right here but you represent a bunch of unhelpful people - Look at the post by Avarre - it is helpful, concise, and nonjudgemental. Yours, however, is not. Hmmmmmmm.

I'm always right m8, if people listen, I consider myself being helpful. Just because my help is harsh, does not invalidate it. It does not matter if I sugar coat it or not, I put the information out.

Gel214th · Sep 19, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

I agree on the difficulty. I completed Nightfall but didn't feel accomplished at the end. I was just happy to have gotten the last part over and done with. I have no desire to go and play any of the other quests in those zones in the realm of Torment.

EOTN is also very difficult as well, and the dungeons stupidly so.
I discredit and ignore those who talk about corner blocking and their perfect builds since they don't post them, nor point to explanations about any of these so called 'skills'.

Guild Wars has become sitting and figuring out a build, assuming you have bought all the powers with your player character from all three chapters to create such a build. In most cases you need a specific group of characters and a specific build to be successful.

It was that way in the latter Nightfall missions, and it is that way again in EOTN. This means you need to have access to as wide a range of powers as possible from multiple campaigns.

The game is easy for the player that uses tricks such as 600/monks where you boost the HP of a monk to 600 and then use Protective Spirit/Spirit Bond to stay alive while a passive skill such as Holy Wrath etc. kills creatures around you. I saw a Monk defeat Varesh with only 3 heroes. Each hero just had about 5 skills. Would that person say the mission was easy? Heck yeah. But if that was the way the mission was meant to be played I don't understand the thinking of the Dev team.

If the game and missions are being made harder to facilitate people that play like that with these trick builds (Because that particular combination isn't viable for normal play elsewhere, it was created specifically for that mission) I think it a ridiculous focus for the dev team.

The Elitist group of players always forget the casual player who has not bought all 3 campaigns and does not have access to every power in the game.

Longasc · Sep 19, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

"Casual" should not become an excuse for being a terribly bad player. GW is not rocket science either, and I fail to see how veteran players cannot develop at least some basic skill at playing the game.

Most of the team build I will post works with only Proph+GWEN. You will not fail if you do not have one of the skills mentioned... it is still you who is playing, not the build.

Clears 95% of EOTN areas and dungeons:

1. YOU (Necro): OANDY8x9Q5BCNWC2BwBlBVV3gA
2. B/P Ranger Hero: OgMU0C7e1sSLGPGqGehoG0GbGoRA
3. Paragon Hero: OQCjUqmK6OP4gsFuCXjT3ub5NA or one more B/P Ranger
4. Necro MM Hero: OABDQTxGP1M0wRlKMFqqKC8A or OABDQTxGP1M0ga4oSFmCVV8A
5. Zho
6. Herta
7. Mhenlo
8. Lina

That players do not have all campaigns and thus not access to all skills for sure is a disadvantage, but it is not the reason why they fail.

Fail once, try again, fail again, try again... if you fail again, ask for advice. This wish for an instant and guaranteed victory over even more dumbed down mobs makes the game mindless and boring, even for "casuals".

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

My Sin didn't need either though.
Critical Agility, Critical Defenses, Way of Perfection... Moebius + Death Blossom spam = Dead Magni.
75% block suffices when 90% miss isn't an option.

I'm sure a Riposting Wammo could manage just fine.

I had not thought of the assassin way.

I'll still stand by my post, though. That is a trick build that I had not listed, to counter Magni's trick build. A generalist build will not win through player skill alone, but a poorer player (which I can use myself as an example of, since certain people seems to think I suck at the game heh) can win with the right skills. Look at me, I got through the game, but that is probably because I have every skill from all 4 games.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Omniclasm · Sep 19, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gel214th

I agree on the difficulty. I completed Nightfall but didn't feel accomplished at the end. I was just happy to have gotten the last part over and done with. I have no desire to go and play any of the other quests in those zones in the realm of Torment.

EOTN is also very difficult as well, and the dungeons stupidly so.
I discredit and ignore those who talk about corner blocking and their perfect builds since they don't post them, nor point to explanations about any of these so called 'skills'.

I'll give you an explanation...2 Monks do not have infinite energy, therefore they cannot keep the whole team alive by themselves. Defense isn't entirely the Monk's job, they just contribute to it. Defense is a team job. Every member of the party should at least have one skill that reduces the stress on the Monks. Things that fall into this category:
-Self-Heal
-Self-Defense
-Party Buffs
-Enemy Debuffs
Pretty much every profession has at least one of these, and generally these should be taken any chance you get.

Quote:

Guild Wars has become sitting and figuring out a build, assuming you have bought all the powers with your player character from all three chapters to create such a build. In most cases you need a specific group of characters and a specific build to be successful.

90% of the game does not require a specific build with specific characters that have specific skills from all 3 campaigns. Few missions "require" anything. Shiro pretty much requires a stance removal, but that is about as far as the required skills go. It just takes a decent team setup, and that setup can vary GREATLY from person to person.

Quote:

It was that way in the latter Nightfall missions, and it is that way again in EOTN. This means you need to have access to as wide a range of powers as possible from multiple campaigns.

You do not "need" to have a wide range of powers as you suggest. Each skill bar can only use 8 skills, even with 3 heroes thats still only 32 skills that you can use at one point in time. I went all the way through Eye of the North and never changed my build.

Quote:

The game is easy for the player that uses tricks such as 600/monks where you boost the HP of a monk to 600 and then use Protective Spirit/Spirit Bond to stay alive while a passive skill such as Holy Wrath etc. kills creatures around you. I saw a Monk defeat Varesh with only 3 heroes. Each hero just had about 5 skills. Would that person say the mission was easy? Heck yeah. But if that was the way the mission was meant to be played I don't understand the thinking of the Dev team.

It does not require tricks, and IMO, these tricks should be removed from the game. The game is easy for people that understand how the game works, the more you understand the game, the more easy/boring it becomes. 90% of the game is still just pull a group, kill the group, move on. Any decent team setup can roll over it.

Quote:

If the game and missions are being made harder to facilitate people that play like that with these trick builds (Because that particular combination isn't viable for normal play elsewhere, it was created specifically for that mission) I think it a ridiculous focus for the dev team.

I am actually disappointed at how easy Eye of the North was. I'm sure many people struggle with it, and thats fine. Eventually you have to learn how to play a game. If the game is easy for people who have no understanding of it, then what will it be for people who do understand it?

Quote:

The Elitist group of players always forget the casual player who has not bought all 3 campaigns and does not have access to every power in the game.

I've not forgotten about the casual player. The fact remains, however, that when making an expansion pack, they are going to be trying to please the mediocre players who atleast remotely understand the game. I'm deeply sorry that the game is not entirely mending wammo material, but seriously at some point you atleast need to start trying to understand the game if you wish to finish it.

Etta · Sep 19, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I had not thought of the assassin way.

^ My paragon's M.Bison beater build doesn't have blind or block in it. So what's that make me then?

Omniclasm · Sep 19, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

^ My paragon's M.Bison beater build doesn't have blind or block in it. So what's that make me then?

Probably the degen+snare route.

Etta · Sep 19, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Probably the degen+snare route.

Ow right the first time, don't forget to run around a bit as well.

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

^ My paragon's M.Bison beater build doesn't have blind or block in it. So what's that make me then?

Pretty damn leet.

But wow, I didn't know how much of a battlefield was going on in here, I need to get me in on some of this action!

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I had not thought of the assassin way.

I'll still stand by my post, though. That is a trick build that I had not listed, to counter Magni's trick build. A generalist build will not win through player skill alone, but a poorer player (which I can use myself as an example of, since certain people seems to think I suck at the game heh) can win with the right skills. Look at me, I got through the game, but that is probably because I have every skill from all 4 games.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Trick build?
Hardly.
It was exactly the same build I use for the rest of Eye of the North... It can solo Jotuns for heck sake! While it only takes a little anti-melee hate (blindness, miss-hexes, empathy or SS) to shut it down completely, there is very little else that can be done to stop it... mostly because it is tough to hit, self-heals, and has obscene AoE DPS.

Yes... I just wailed on Magni and outdamaged his healing.... and he couldn't hit me all that much in return (and even when he did, I had the oppurtunity to heal it back up again).

Does that seriously look like a specialist gimmick to you?

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Does that seriously look like a specialist gimmick to you?

I can see how you would use that to refute what I am saying. I begin to suspect that I am not distilling down my argument well, because of your "look at my exception to your statement!" tact.

But yes, it is a "trick" build.

Guild Wars is full of "trick" builds that have a rock, paper, scissors dynamic - just as you say, melee shutdown will stop you. A general skills build does not rely on any "tricks", and Whammo is a good example - it is just raw healing and damage. It will lose to any "trick" build.

So, really, Guild Wars is a 4 choice game - rock, paper, scissors, and let us call the last one "Whammo". Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock, and they all beat Whammo.

The players who do not have the skills to play rock, paper, or scissors will be incredibly hampered playing the game, and we see that in every post that the game is crazy hard!

And occasionally, there is a "trick" build introduced by new skills that may be based on Rock, may be Scissors, whatever, that will beat both other choices upsetting the gimmick/countergimmick nature of the game, and ANet then descends with the Nerf Hammer to restore game balance.

So I feel safe making the statement that certain bosses require specific skills because they all are using a "trick" to make them tough to beat. And, if the player does not have the skills to play the counter, they will not get through no matter how skilled they are as a player.

For Magni, you need the exact counter that you as the assassin are vulnerable to - anti-melee. I used Blind and Cripple/kite because those are the simplest ways, and I used them myself to beat him. I did not go the assassin route, because I do not have an assassin primary.

Where it gets controversial is the statement that I am mocking all the players with "learn to play" responses - that the game is not as deep as they think, and that the skills used are more important than player skill. Their implication that this game is difficult to comprehend shows a belief that they have something that other people do not have, which is hubris at its finest. I would also challenge anyone to state, with an honest face, that the best GW player with a Rock build, will easily beat an average player with a Paper build.

So when they say "learn to play", they really mean "learn to cap skills".

And lastly, to all the players in game who get the ego boost from the "mad leet playa skillz" they have, well, I do OK too - since I have every skill from all 4 games.

I just don't fib and say "this game is hard to master, lrn2play noob" when really, a few skills to beat whatever "trick" is being played by other players or the Bot/Boss AI is all that is required. It is not rocket science to know that LoD counters party-wide degen better than WoH, or that an interrupted spell or attack is better than a heal.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

fenix · Sep 19, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So, really, Guild Wars is a 4 choice game - rock, paper, scissors, and let us call the last one "Whammo". Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock, and they all beat Whammo.

The players who do not have the skills to play rock, paper, or scissors will be incredibly hampered playing the game, and we see that in every post that the game is crazy hard!

I guess I have a 5th option, because I never lose.

Or maybe it's because I've PvP'd, therefore have a greater knowledge of how to counter things...

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Two posts above, 100% agree with TobascoSauce. This is pretty much what me and SotiCoto were talking about in his other thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Or maybe it's because I've PvP'd, therefore have a greater knowledge of how to counter things...

PvP is quite the reality check, I will say.

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I did not see that thread, but am reading it now.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I did not see that thread, but am reading it now.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Oh you can read it if you want (it's the closed one), it was mostly all off-topic anyhow, but I didn't mean "lolz you just watsed yer time I already said all this stuff PWNT". I was more saying "Aw crap SotiCoto is gonna be having the same argument again".

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Oh you can read it if you want (it's the closed one), it was mostly all off-topic anyhow, but I didn't mean "lolz you just watsed yer time I already said all this stuff PWNT". I was more saying "Aw crap SotiCoto is gonna be having the same argument again".

You can make the claim that you said it all first - I'm good with that. This exact topic of conversation has come up in GURU before, with different authors. This is merely the continuation.,

Well, let me rephrase that whole thing, the idea of in-game skill balancing and player actual skill influencing the outcome of any player versus player endeavor is older than the hills. The English had debates about legal or illegal woods for cricket bats, and how the availability of different woods in their colonies affected the game, for example.

There are only so many ways to design a fork, so funny enough they all seem to look alike.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Swift Thief · Sep 19, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

GW:EN was easy. Very easy. Very very easy. Almost easy as Pre-Searing.

Gigashadow · Sep 19, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Whatever helps you sleep at night, bro.

You've used that phrase 4 times now just on the last couple of pages. Your record is broken, it's time for a new tune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The implication that "skills" > player skill always brings out a heated response from the PvP crowd. I said it before, I'll say it again - if skill was more important as "skills" equipped, then a superior player would be able to overcome a deficient build.

Good players don't use deficient builds, so this is irrelevant. What's next, "Gear > player skill, because naked players don't win GvG tournaments?". If there were really little or no skill involved, then all those millions of random joes would be at the GvG tournaments, and it would be effectively random who wins. Of course, they aren't there, because player skill is much more of a differentiator than you seem to want to believe, and it has tended to be the same set of guilds and players winning over time. You've been told this by multiple people now.

It is a truism that people who are bad at things, always try to downplay the amount of personal ability involved. It happens in every single activity, particularly computer games.